Sam 05.18.11

@Michele

I must have hit a nerve. You sound virtually incoherent. Breast implants are not natural, they are silicone bags implanted in the body. That’s a strawman argument. Now there are treatments that DO increase breast size that ARE natural. And if the woman doesn’t want the fetus, she simulates a miscarriage in most cases with the RU pill. (Plan B is NOT the same.)

Also many fetuses that should have been miscarried still form. But the way they are misformed doesn’t develope until too late for a typical abortion.

And killing it after it’s born? Another straw man, you’re so clever. Nope. Even though the Bible states a child could be killed till one month of age without it being murder, I believe once a fetus becomes born or self viable from the mother it’s untouchable. Because we have *hospitals* now that can care for premies dontcha know so we don’t need to mimic wild animals.

Maybe YOU should rethink your position. You would make women slaves of their uterus. I’ve seen how far many, especially the religeous right, want to take things. Chain women to the bed through their pregnancy, treat them as if their body is only good to be always ready to be pregnant, (feeding them certain things because what if they got pregnant tomorrow!), restricting activities… Then like I mentioned, a bill was proposed that would look at every miscarriage as a potential murder. Another bill would deny women ambulance rides for an emergency abortion. A doctor tried to sue a woman for not spending months under bed rest at his hospital for being pregnant….the list of control goes on.

And what sense does it make to restrict birth control and keep women ignorant of their own bodies? How does that prevent the need for abortions? Only in upside-down-inside-out-fundi world. The truth is a lot of this is about control. About taking away our ability to control our own sexuality and being able to have careers and such. About punishing women for daring to have sex. Look at them attacking the GS for pity’s sake. God forbid they grow up to be strong independent women.

Michele 05.18.11

@Sam…You obviously didn’t read my first post to you before this….as soon as I posted it all posts were removed except my 2nd post..and Jennas from today….I don’t have time to go into all again…. Basically the point was you’re completely wrong about me….Just because I’m pro-life doesn’t mean mean I go around preaching the Bible…In fact I didn’t even mention God in my previous posts….you started spouting stuff about miscarriages and “the Prolife Christians” and a sadistic God…. I don’t even go to church! Then the stuff about birth control….come on you don’t even know me!! News Flash: Not all pro-lifers are against birth-control!!! I”m not!!! In fact I used to be on the pill for years before the docs told me not to because of my increased breast cancer risk. Birth control prevents abortions!!! Why would I be against that? I also talked about the fact that the preventable causes you spoke of for an ectopic pregnancy include birth control and previous uterine surgery including Guess what??? Abortions!!! So a woman has an abortion then the 2nd time it’s ectopic because of the abortion….she dies…..Hhmmm….sounds like a death from a Legal abortion if you ask me. And thats just the beginning….I have statistics on deaths from Legal abortions if you would like. I never said no one died during childbirth or from ectopic pregnancies(which are also caused for unknown reasons that no one can control) or from illegal abortions. But be honest with your facts….Legal abortion kills women too!!! And using RU 486 is not a miscarriage…..it simulates a miscarriage like you said. That is not natural. Just like I said getting breast implants isn’t natural….and all “elective” abortions aren’t natural. That’s why they are called “elective”. A spontaneous abortion aka a miscarriage is not elective. No woman chooses to have a miscarriage!!!! A woman chooses to have an “elective” abortion. I’m pretty sure I explained the difference in spontaneous and elective in my last post…I’m not sure why you don’t get it? Spontaneous means occurred without premeditation or external stimuli….involuntary. When a woman takes the RU486 or Plan B she is voluntarily taking the pills…premeditated….and I’m pretty sure the pills would be considered external stimuli. So don’t call a miscarriage and an elective abortion the same thing. To someone who considered abortion with her first child, then tried for years to become pregnant again and had a true miscarriage before finally getting pregnant again this is a huge insult. As I’m sure it’s an insult to any woman who’s thought they were pregnant then miscarried. So again….RU 486, Plan B or any other “elective’ abortion is NOT a miscarriage!!! And they aren’t natural….they were developed by humans…..as for your natural breast enhancements….what are they? Pills, creams maybe that were developed by humans? Again not natural. As for killing babies after they’re born….just trying to understand your thinking…because that happens in nature and you’re all about natural and nature so I wasn’t sure if you differentiated between animals and humans. And what you said about the Bible stating it’s ok to kill a baby up to a month after birth….I don’t even go to church or read the Bible so whatever…but coming from my friend who does…that’s old testament which was thrown out and basically replaced with new testament. You know….it’s no longer eye for an eye….but Do unto others as you want them to do to you. So that part of you’re argument is irrelevant. And yes thankfully we do have hospitals that take care of preemies. As the mother of a baby that was born 2 months early I know to well!!!! So you think my “fetus” as you call it….who looked like a perfectly formed baby to me when she was born at 31 weeks, should have been aborted if I so chose…Or what if they wouldn’t have given her the oxygen she needed to get through the night. I had a placental abruption that cut off her air supply and if she would not have had oxygen through the night she would have died. The next day she was breathing on her own….which the docs said was a miracle! So was she worthy to live? She was self viable FROM me and born but she wasn’t self-viable. This is why arguing with you is a waste of time…..you believe a person is a person based on viability…I believe a person is a person because they have a heartbeat, and brain waves etc etc etc….like I said in my first post. I get sick of repeating myself….. You are so wrong about me!! Just because I’m pro-life doesn’t mean I’m a Bible preaching, birth control banning, God spouting woman hater. Women can have sex all they want….I don’t care!!!! Women can do what they want with their bodies…but when it comes to another human growing inside of you….Take some responsibility for your actions and woman up!!! If you still aren’t ready to raise a child here’s a new idea….birth control!!!!! It comes in all sorts of forms not just pills….condoms, etc etc. Didn’t Planned Parenthood teach you this stuff? And then there is this thing called….what is it again? Oh right….ADOPTION!!!! I will compromise on this….make birth control available to all and even Plan B….even though I still personally am opposed to it…. But there is no heartbeat at that point…….Once there is a heartbeat and someone intentionally stops it….premeditated…external stimuli….then it’s killing another human. How can you argue that? As I said earlier my first post to you was deleted so that’s probably why I sounded incoherent….. Or maybe because you and I are using two completely different parts of our brain. Because you sound completely incoherent to me too. I really don’t have time to argue with people like you and you’ve really offended me by saying a woman choosing to end her pregnancy with RU 486 or any other abortion is the same as a natural miscarriage. Abortion is not a natural part of nature!! And it kills a lot more women than you think. Would you like the statistics? I will be back later to post if you want me to. Get your facts straight!!!!

matthew 05.19.11

Parents send their children to groups like the Girl Scouts, and the Boy Scouts for fun, education, adventure…
They don’t send them to be politically indoctrinated!

I will not be letting my daughter join The Girl Scouts.

Sam 05.20.11

I replied and it’s still ‘being moderated’. So I assumed you were caught up too. But since you asked I’ll go again.

You need to teach you cats not to walk on your keyboard.

Good that you support birth control. It prevents thousands of unwanted pregnancies.

And you have lots of statistics on abortion related deaths? Are they from pro-life links? Abortions after Roe are the safest they have ever been. Women can be in a surgial setting or simply use a pill, and a doctor is always available if there are complications they can immediately contact without shame or fear. Before Roe, thousands of women died from back alley abortions. Hospitals had a special room reserved for such patients. Make abortion illegal again and women will go back to the alleys to die in the shadows, but that’s more comfortable for people. It’s easy to condemn them and ignore them that way. But it’s cruel and kills both the fetus and the mother.

Here’s some videos about those women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDGEaN2l86I&feature=mh_lolz&list=LLUUn-MVPAM0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmoqc2KUt84&feature=related

These are real women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72Hk17V8DqU

I understand the difference between spontaneous and elective very much. You were the one to go on about how simulated isn’t natural. (Abortion is not a natural part of nature!!) Well a lot of things aren’t. But I was trying to say we are able to use science to duplicate natural events without causing harm. Vaccinations for example. They are not by your definition ‘natural’. We had thousands of people dying from smallpox and polio, but with science were able to use natural reactions of the body to create immunities. So are we able to duplicate a miscarriage.

And as your daughter was viable FROM you that is my whole point. She was not dependent upon your body to live. We cannot force you to donate a kidney or marrow to save someone. So we cannot force women to carry what they do not want. Where would we draw the line? It becomes a slippery slope, as I pointed out with the bill that was almost passed about trying every miscarriage as a potential murder. What if the doctor said it was because the woman wouldn’t take a recommended vitamin? Boom. She’s in jail for murder.

Adoption is an option. But pregnancy is still a risk to force someone to take. Maternity is still a cause of death in the USA. A body goes through severe hormonal and other physical changes. What if a woman has a family history of PPD or such that is triggered by pregnancies with women in her family? Diabetes?

“Didn’t Planned Parenthood teach you this stuff? ” The irony. Pro-lifers are closing off funds for this organization in every state they can that will prevent women from learning these things. This article is about a fury to the GS for even talking to PP where they can learn about this stuff.

Sam 05.20.11

I am never afraid to confront you and your so called facts which are simply emotionally laden insults.

Michele 05.20.11

@Sam…….No not all of my links and statistics come from “pro-life” sources. I like to look at both sides and a lot of times I use statistics from Planned Parenthood and their sources. I’m in the process of getting them together….. and I never said abortions weren’t safer now than they were before Roe v Wade… Giving birth is safer now than it was before 1973…..everything medically is safer thankfully because of the huge advances in science. That doesn’t mean it’s still not a dangerous procedure that kills women more often than people like to admit. And the reason I went on and on about the difference in spontaneous and elective is because in one of your previous post you said miscarriages and abortions (early medical) were the same. And they are not…..You’re right it simulates a miscarriage. I’m glad we agree on that…. I think….. As for the bill about trying every miscarriage as murder…..I think that’s ridiculous!!! Yes there are idiots out there that would actually go along with something like this but hopefully there are more people with some common sense to know this is for one, unenforceable, and just unfair! I will admit there are some extreme “pro-lifers” out there just as there are extreme pro-choicers. Not everyone who claims to be pro-life really is. This is just one bill that highlights the lunatic fringe that is on both sides of this debate. As I said before I know women still die in childbirth and from complications of pregnancy in the United States……but they also die from legal abortions still here in the US…. Trust me I know about diabetes, which runs rampant in my family, and PPD which I suffered from severely after my first child. There are treatments for these and many other diseases caused by or during pregnancy. They are very rarely fatal if treated properly. And if a woman is aware of these issues and doesn’t want to get pregnant then take birth control. The pill is over 99% effective when used correctly….and over 92% even when not used typically. Like you said women depend on PP to learn about these health issues…well they depend on them for birth control information too. So why is it that there are still so many unplanned pregnancies and abortions? Everyone keeps saying PP prevents thousands of unwanted pregnancies every year. I beg to differ….birth control prevents thousands of unwanted pregnancies every year. You can get birth control at other places besides PP. And it looks to me like PP is not doing their job very well. Did you know that between 1998 and 2009 PP’s abortions performed DOUBLED from 165,509 in 1998 to 332,278 in 2009? All of this while abortions, as a whole, DROPPED by 25% in the United States! Obviously they aren’t preventing pregnancies or reducing abortions like they say they do. Abortion rates all over the country are dropping drastically, except for inside the walls of a PP facility. Don’t you find that interesting? So if they aren’t doing their job preventing pregnancy and reducing abortions are they doing their job giving out important health information? I’m not so sure. So why should my tax dollars go to a company that’s not doing what they are supposed to be doing with that money and reducing pregnancies? And just so you know…I went to a PP clinic a few times in my younger years and you know what birth control they gave me? And handful of condoms. No they wouldn’t give me pills for free. I went to the health department for free birth control pills. All I got from PP in 2002 was a pregnancy test, an STD test and a handful of condoms. Oh wait!! And a bill for $130.00. That’s right! All of that money they get from the govt and businesses and private donors not to mention all of the money they make yearly on abortions yet they couldn’t afford to give a young, single poor woman a pregnancy test, STD testing and birth control for free? According to PP’s annual report for 2002-2003 their total income for that year was 766.6 million dollars. After deducting for clinic operation, taxpayer money and donations PP still made a profit of 36.6 million dollars! 36.6 million dollars and I only made $10,000 that year. So much for helping out poor women!! Do you realize I had to make payments on that $130.00 bill from PP? I’m all for birth control and sex ed( at the correct age) but it’s time for people to wake up and realize PP is not helping women or young single families. They are a multi-million dollar company doing what companies do….try and make even more money.

Michele 05.20.11

Again this is straight from the CDC. In 1972, 24 women died from causes known to be associated with legal abortions and 39 died as a result of known illegal abortions. Yes 15 more women died from an illegal abortion but still 24 died from a legal abortion! These numbers of deaths from illegal abortions are a far cry from the hundreds to thousands I’ve heard so many pro-choicers claim to have died.

Toybitz 03.06.12
Hi Dave,Here’s to the Wikipedia page that defines uocredrption with regards to an organism’s life by saying, # Reproduction The division of one cell to form two new cells is uocredrption. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth. So I guess we’re both right in a way. So if you were making an ethical claim shouldn’t you say person not living human being, since human being to many people means a member of the species homo sapiens and not person? Using these terms (one biological, the other philosophical/ethical) and not differentiating between them can certainly confuse the issue. Let’s say if the mother died no one else could take care of them. For example, let’s say a mother and her small child live in Canada and are snowed in. They have enough food and water to survive but the mother needs to use her bodily resources to feed the child. If the mother dies, the child will eventually die as well. Is the child then not a living human being?How is it less arbitrary? How can something be less arbitrary than something which you admit is completely arbitrary. That’s an assertion with no argument to back it up. To strengthen your position, you should first recognize that the unborn are biological human beings. Numerous pro-choice people (usually the ones that can argue about abortion the best) can accept this basic biological fact. You could then attempt to argue that the unborn aren’t persons. By creating some category that would allow you to discriminate against one group of human beings (the unborn).
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Michele 05.20.11

In 1998 and 1999 (the most recent years for which data are available), 14 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion. Ten of these deaths occurred in 1998 and four occurred in 1999; no deaths were associated with known illegal abortion.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

Michele 05.20.11

http://www.factcheck.org/society/abortion_distortions.html

Robby 03.06.12
It would be nice if this topic didn’t get so heated so cikquly. Maybe if we could respectfully share opinions, even when they differ, we could understand each other’s point of view better. Even if we never agree (but who knows, you might even change someone’s view)I personally wouldn’t ever decide to have an abortion but that’s my choice. I understand completely many of the issues that are behind the choice to have an abortion. I am a single mom of 3 and had my first while still a teenager so I understand completely the lack of support some women face, the worry about how to afford to raise a child, the worry about finishing school or getting a job, about lack of childcare, the stigma that comes with having a baby alone or too young. and about 10 million other worries that come with an unplanned pregnancy. For me and my life, all of the sacrifices I have made have been worth it and I would do it over again if I had the choice. My kids are happy, healthy and have everything they need including the option of furthering their education when they are old enough. I may not be able to take them to Disney World but I don’t think that’s necessary for raising a child properly.I do have questions though. First is for people who are saying things like if you choose to open your legs then you better be prepared to take care of a baby . Why do you so strongly think that if you make a baby you must raise a baby? You don’t ever mention adoption. Do you think adoption is wrong too? Many happy families have been brought together through adoption. The second is an adoption question for those who see abortion as the only viable option. I’m sure many of the women who’ve chosen abortion HAVE considered adoption and opted the way they did for one reason or another. I’m just curious what some of those reason are. The person who wrote this didn’t mention if it was considered and why it wasn’t the best option. Nine months isn’t *that* long and if your first baby is only 9 months old she wouldn’t even have to know you were pregnant. I know it’s really none of my business but I am curious and I am asking respectfully without attacking anyone or aggressively pushing my personal belief. I know people who were adopted, who have adopted, who have given a baby for adoption, I also know several who have had abortions, but this is something that I rarely have been able to ask and when I have asked the only answer I’ve gotten is I don’t know .
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Sam 05.20.11

@Michele

An abortion is 11 times safer than a pregnancy. And why try to make it illegal again driving women to die in back alley abortions when it is so much safer now? What sense does that make except to punish women? It would help no one.

And every pregnancy leaves permenant effects on the body, some more permenant than others. And while some are treatable many are permenant. And there is still the risk of death. During 1991–1999, a total of 4,200 deaths were determined to be pregnancy-related. A risk I WILL NOT TAKE unless I want that pregnancy for your moral call on my body.Mortality rates for women in the US are actually on the RISE.
(http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/22/science/la-sci-maternal-deaths-20100523)

The birth control pill is actually 95-99% effective with perfect use. Otherwise it is actually 87% effective. HALF of all pregnancies in the US are unplanned.

Reasons for this is from abstenance on education where many girls rely on rumor such as using Mtn Dew to prevent pregnancy, misinformation from their own parents, misinformation from the internet, lack of access to birth control due to lack of transportation/access/funds, all things PP fights against.

What’s interesting is conservative states, (which especially push abstenance only education) also have the highest rates of unplanned pregnancies. “Using another measure that calculates frequency of unintended pregnancies, the analysis by the nonprofit Guttmacher Institute found the highest rates of unintended pregnancy were in the South, Southwest and in states with large urban populations. Highest was Mississippi with 69 per 1,000 women ages 15-44; lowest was New Hampshire, with 36 per 1,000.”

You said abortions doubled then “as a whole, DROPPED by 25% in the United States!” Sounds like more people are using PP’s resources, and they are working because PP is a PART of that whole 25% that dropped.

In 2005/2006
38% of finances were for contraception
3% for abortion
19% for cancer screenings
29% for STD treatments
10% on women’s health services such as prenatal care
1% for other services such as such as primary care

All nonprofits are supposed to disclose their finances. I was easily able to look up donors and where their money went and how much. (Equipment, property, taxes, final balances.) Where were these obscene profits?

Because more people were going to PP for help but as a whole their BC campaign helped that 25% to drop by giving affordable condoms and BC pills. And they don’t just give it for fr, they use a sliding scale based on your financial need. I got it free in undergrad but pay now. I have friends that were able to get BC that they could afford there when their insurance wouldn’t cover it.

These deaths you found for pre Roe? Many were performed by back yard doctors who didn’t want to be outed. But their families know. How about names?
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/deaths/preroedeaths.htm

Post Roe deaths:
Myrta Baptiste
Myrta, age 26, had abortion performed by Orlando Zaldivar at Woman’s Care Clinic December 18, 1982. Since Zaldivar’s license was inactive at the time he performed Myrta’s abortion, the CDC classified her death as being due to illegal abortion.

How about teenagers that tried to self abort?
“Daisy” Roe
Daisy, a systems analyst for a defense contractor, had an appointment to abort her second-trimester pregnancy scheduled for April 30, 1990. But on April 28, she allowed her boyfriend to insert a plastic tube into her uterus in a home-abortion attempt.

Teenagers in rural areas, unable to get BC or ashamed are drinking animal abortifacts to self abort.Cases have been documented in at least three rural Wisconsin counties. The drugs, kept on farms for management of livestock under the names Prostaglandins, Cystorelin, Factrel, Gonadorelin or Lutalyse, were being ingested orally in large quantities, even though animals are treated by injection, the alert said.

According to the CDC: A total of 848,163 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2003 from 49 reporting areas, representing a 0.7% decline from the 854,122 legal induced abortions reported by 49 reporting areas for 2002. The abortion ratio, defined as the number of abortions per 1,000 live births, was 241 in 2003, a decrease from the 246 in 2002. The abortion rate was 16 per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years for 2003, the same as for 2002. For the same 47 reporting areas, the abortion rate remained relatively constant during 1998–2003. During 2001–2002 (the most recent years for which data are available), 15 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion. One death was associated with known illegal abortion. In 2001 and 2002, as in the previous years, deaths related to legal induced abortions occurred rarely.

Prior to Roe v. Wade, as many as 5,000 American women died annually as a direct result of unsafe abortions. Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the current death rate from abortion at all stages of gestations is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures. This is 11 times safer than carrying a pregnancy to term and nearly twice as safe as a penicillin injection.

According to the WHO, in countries where abortion remains unsafe it is a leading cause of maternal mortality, accounting for 78,000 of the 600,000 annual pregnancy-related deaths worldwide.

Approximately 219 women die worldwide each day from an unsafe abortion.

Michele 05.24.11

It’s been 3 days…why hasn’t my comment been moderated and posted already? This is ridiculous!!!

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Farah 03.07.12

Here are a few things pro-choicers may need to nunerstadd:1) Many pro-lifers agree there are not support systems in place for women with unplanned pregnancies and so, those women feel they have no choice but abortion. That is a MAJOR FAIL, and one I hope we can all continue to work on.2) All the pro-lifers I know do not submit unwillingly’ to men, but rather (this may be a surprise to you) submit WILLINGLY because we’ve chosen men whom we trust and who share our values. Submission doesn’t have to be a bad thing, you know, and sometimes, it can even be fun 3) The last few generations of women have been taught to do it all,’ no matter the consequences. Congratulations, gals! You CAN have it all, and doesn’t it all’ feel great? Hasn’t feminism made us feel all warm and fuzzy inside? Made us feel empowered? Filled us with self-esteem? Kept us focused on the right priorities? If we were truly honest with ourselves, we’d find that feminism does not generally support women, but rather, makes us feel like we have to live like a man to feel whole. How is that empowering women really? And somewhere along the way, women have become angry and bitter. Hm. Perhaps we should’ve reconsidered the whole Do-It-All thing.4) Most pro-lifers I know were pro-choice at some point in their lives. Something changed that growing older and wiser, finding faith, having a baby, losing a baby, birth/death, something. I’ve never heard of a pro-lifer becoming pro-choice. There’s probably a reason for that.Here’s to supporting women through unplanned pregnancies so they don’t have to suffer the consequence of choosing to abort a baby.